What is the future of advertising and sponsorships for podcasters? Today me and Jarrod talk about podcast advertising and current trends
Hey guys, Ryan here from podcastfast.com. Today, I have with me Jarrod from podmatcher.com, which is a podcast-advertising matching service. Today, we’re going to talk about the future of advertising in podcasting and a whole bunch of different things around advertising like podcasters and advertisers relationships and a bunch of those different things.
Ryan: Hey, Jarrod. Thanks for coming on today.
Jarrod: Hey, Ryan. No problem.
Ryan: Okay, so let’s talk about why you started PodMatcher in the beginning. Give people a quick overview of what it is. And then, talk about the steps that kind of lead you to start it because I think that will lead in to all that you want to achieve.
Jarrod: Yeah. [Inaudible 0:38] PodMatcher, I created about a year ago. I wanted to create like a podcast agency, you could say. Where I wanted to connect the podcasters and sponsorships together. In the last year and a half, sponsorships become more of a bigger concept with the podcasting. Before that, it wasn’t so well-admired, you could say. So, it’s becoming more acceptable when you get the right sponsor with the right podcaster, it works quite well for all parties.
This kind of derived from – when I was 19, I started working in radio and then I was in there for 7-8 years. And then, I kind of despised it almost. Like, I have this dark memory of radio so I got out of radio.
Ryan: What was it about radio that you had a distaste for?
Jarrod: There’s a line in a Radiohead song, “buzzing like a fridge”, it’s from Karma Police. Sums it up quite perfectly, Thom Yorke says, “it’s like buzzing like a fridge in your ear” and that’s what radio became. It has not soul, it has no depth.
Ryan: Do you mean that you found it too annoying?
Jarrod: Too annoying and I was in commercial radio, I’ll be honest with you, it wasn’t great radio. I mean, it was Amazing Radio, who I was working for and I did some stints with Alice Cooper also; which is great and he was more podcasting than radio, I guess, at that time.
It was just becoming monogamous, you could say. That’s when podcasting started to develop in the last few years. I know it’s been around since 2001, 2002. Last few years, it started to get a bigger voice.
Ryan: Podcasting’s actually been growing. It’s kind of being on a steady growth. It’s had a few kind of bumps in the line when things really took off. First, Apple introduced iTunes and with that, podcasting which you can put on to your iPod. So that sort of gave a bump. And then when podcasting came on to your iPhone, when they separated the apps from iTunes and to podcasting, that gave it a bump. Recently, Apple’s put podcasting as a default app on your phone. So that’s given it a bump.
All the time, it’s been growing. I think for me, with radio, it’s kind of the same as you, I just find it quite annoying. I’ve been listening to podcast for years. I used to be a pharmaceutical representative and I used to drive around and I spend hours driving everyday. I would just, podcast, podcast, podcast, podcast. I’d never listen to radio. All the other representatives would do radio and I just couldn’t do it. I’d be on the road learning.
The other day, or no, it was a couple of months ago, I was at my uncle’s house helping him do some painting and he’s got the radio on. I’m like, “Dude, what is this? Why do you got the radio on?” These ads are coming on, it’s so annoying. I’m like, “Dude, Pandora. Get on Pandora.” Either Pandora for music or podcast for learning. For me, I hardly listen to the radio in the last 4 years.
Jarrod: I’ve converted my dad over to Pandora also. He was radio, all the way. And then I said – because he’s on the road most of the day, he’s working and I said, “Dad, just put this on your iPad.” Now he’s addicted to it. Radio will always be there but I think it’s kind of, now we have another option where we can actually hear people speak about interesting stuff and stuff that we want to hear. Not the same, monogamous – you know, some comedians are great on radio. But it’s become the same thing. It’s time to move on, in my sense.
Ryan: Yeah. I think one of the problems with radio is that it appeals to the mass market, you know. So you have like Kyle and Jackie O or something like that. They’re just talking celebrity trash sort of talk to try and, I guess, appeal to the mass amount of people to get the advertisers. Whereas, podcasters are very specific, we’re talking about podcasting or we’re talking internet marketing or we’re talking about fitness. It’s a very, very kind of different scenario.
I think, as more people spread in to the different niches that they’re interested in, they’re less likely to go back to radio because it’s just so hit and miss, radio. Sometimes it’s good – Hamish and Andy are awesome – but other times it’s annoying, like there’s too many ads or songs you don’t like. So, I definitely think podcasting is going to advance and radio will decline.
Jarrod: Podcasting, it’s very humble also, I find. You mentioned Kyle and Jackie O and if everyone who is in Australia, yeah, I had a bit to do with him also. To work with talent – radio talent – is really, really difficult and the whole world revolves around them. So it’s not a humble industry. When you come to podcasting, there’s an individual talking about something that they love and people connect with it. I love that.
I actually made a podcast in 2002 about quarter life crisis. I did it for a few months. I’m like, “Oh, won’t catch on! This is dumb internet – radio on the internet.” Podcasting wasn’t such a phrase back then, but now it is. Now, we have all these really good who are really just so sweet and nice and want to speak to people and I kind of really like that.
Ryan: Yup. Now, let’s pivot into advertising and where – where do you think advertising’s going with podcast? I’ve seen advertising on some shows like, there’s the StartUp podcast, which is popular. There’s Cereal, obviously, which a lot of people have heard about that have done advertising. There’s some smaller podcast that do advertising as well. Where do you think advertising’s heading in regards to podcasters?
Jarrod: It’s actually having a real turn around and I can only compare this to radio. Usually, in radio, we work on the CPM, Cost Per Thousand people. So, the advertiser, let’s say, in radio – or even podcast in the last few years, said, “Okay, heres $1,000. I want you do this, this and this.” because we’re paying for it. Now, companies such as Audible, is good example, it’s starting to work on CPA, Cost Per Action. They say, “Hey, if you speak about us and if you send people to our website, we’ll pay a premium for each person you can get to sign up.”
That’s kind of changed the game a little bit. Now, the advertisers are working for the podcaster. The podcasters can’t work for the advertiser now.
So with PodMatcher, we really push sponsorships to work on a CPA basis. It can only work with some companies because they’ve got to have the system in place to count how many sales they make per CPA. Then, they can pay the podcaster. I see the podcasting having much more control of their product than what you do in radio. Because, let’s be honest, radio’s just one big money-making advertisement. That’s all it is.
Ryan: I guess the big thing about radio is they bring in lots of different talent and then the talent isn’t the people who’s organising the advertisements or necessarily reading them. Sometimes they do, but not really. Whereas, with podcasters, it’s generally a guy in his room or a couple of guys or gals or whoever it is. It’s a small operation that you’re doing and advertisements, you tend to read them out yourself. And so, it’s almost – it’s kind of borderline endorsement, I think, podcast advertising. Which is kind of a dangerous area.
What do you think about – like with CPA, as you were saying, Cost Per Action, there’s only a few companies that can actually handle that because you actually need a backend system to track who sent this. Do actually think that’s going to be the future? Or do you think, as podcasting gets bigger and more people want attention, CPM is going to be the way most people go because there’s more businesses and they don’t have that infrastructure.
Jarrod: CPM would work really well on podcasts if the technology was there to count how many downloads that you actually get and how long the person actually listens and when they listen. When that technology comes about, it’s going to be easy to sell CPM.
Ryan: What about the – because there obviously is technology at the moment where you can track how many downloads you get. So people using Libsyn or they’re using Soundcloud, that’s all tracked.
Jarrod: It is tracked but if you look on – I’ve been working with the guys from Audible and they work on subscriptions because what they’ve realised is if someone’s had 5,000 downloads on iTunes, let’s say, because you’ve got various different outlets, obviously. It can download to their phone, to their iPad and to their computer. And so, the count isn’t exact as it should be. It’s not the exact count that you want. So, with CPA, I think you can know exactly how many people you’ve sent to the website.
Early on, with PodMatcher, we worked with CPM and I found that the advertisers were just a little bit disappointed. That’s when I thought I’d just change over to CPA. I think the technology for CPA will need to be put in place so it’s much more easier for businesses to just – to make it happen. Instead of putting a whole backend structure in. That technology will come about too, I have ideas. I think we’re early in the game so it’s really hard to tell which to swing at the moment. Give it a few more years, I think it’d entirely different industry, I really do.
Ryan: Yeah. I think podcasting is really coming into the common vocabulary now. Like when you talk to people about podcast, even if they don’t listen to podcast, they tend to understand what a podcast is or they’ve listened to one or something like that. I’m an early adopter of learning and podcasting and stuff like that but my wife isn’t. When she starts getting into podcast and listening to podcast, I’m like, “Okay, something’s changing now.” Because she started listening to podcast now.
Nowhere near as much as what I do but the fact that she’s done it kind of show me that the mass market is starting to adopt this and starting to become something that’s more widely-known, more accepted. I think, as you said, the landscape is going to change in the future as more and more people adopt this.
At the moment, iTunes is the biggest platform for podcasting but it has no monetisation model around it. What do you think about the chance of iTunes coming in and shaking things up by doing something similar to Youtube, where you just do pre-rolls and stuff like that. I see iTunes could either go the Youtube way, where they host everything and have the ads or they could go the Google way where it’s like a search engine and you can pay to advertise in the podcast search engine. Do you think either of those are viable strategy?
Jarrod: It’s funny you mentioned that. Did you see the article last week that Apple are starting to implement this on their iTunes at the moment?
Ryan: No. What happened?
Jarrod: This is on top of my head, so some things could be wrong here. But they put a patent on this, on iTunes, to be able to do this, like Youtube. Which I was like, “Oh, Damn!” What we want to do is we want to also promote our podcasters. So that’s a strength that we have. But if iTunes do that, we can totally work with that also. I think that’ll work really well.
Ryan: What do you mean “it’ll work really well”? What are you thinking?
Jarrod: It’ll work really well for podcasters, also. I think for PodMatcher, in general – like I said, we’re putting in strategies to promote the podcasters. Again, iTunes won’t promote podcasters, so I’m sure we can – in the future I’ll have to see how I can bounce around that and how I can join up with podcasters or even Apple do to something, you know.
Ryan: So do you think it will go that way? And that Apple will become like the advertising behemoth that Google has become in terms of tech growth?
Jarrod: It might. The lovely thing about podcasting is it has this – there’s a bit of anarchy to it, almost. Like there’s a bit of anti-establishments around podcasting. That is changing at the moment but the last 5-10 years or since podcasting started, it was a really underground cult kind of community. Now it’s becoming more mainstream. So, I’m not sure. At the moment, the podcast industry is almost a guessing game, we’re just feeling our way and seeing where it’s going. For me, I’ve got my eye on it everyday and seeing what’s happening. So, yeah.
Ryan: So, in regards to CPA, do you think that is a good option for smaller podcasters who don’t have big distribution? And how could someone get involved with cost per acquisition or cost per action sort of advertising on their podcast?
Jarrod: Okay. So, there’s a few ways. Again, there’s not many companies out there doing it at the moment so you’d jump online, you can find companies or you can just go to podmatcher.com, we can set people up easily – globally, also. We work with Audible now and they’ve given us some really amazing tools to be able to get our podcasters and get them globally. With CPA, what was your question again? Sorry.
Ryan: I was just talking about smaller podcasters who don’t have massive distribution. They’re not serial or they’re not getting hundreds of thousands of downloads. How can they incorporate CPA – like if a podcaster’s just making a podcast, they’re not making any money from it. They listen to this and they think, “Okay, well, doing some advertising on my podcast where I get paid where someone takes an action. That kind of like an affiliate deal, that could work for me.” What’s their next steps?
Jarrod: This is interesting. I think there’s a few ways to monetise on podcasting. Obviously, you talk about it on your podcast also. I’m thinking with CPA, you could have 2 or 3 sponsors throughout the podcast. And if you need to make that extra money. Unless you’ve got an audience, I guess you’re not going to make the massive income. So, that’s what we’re trying to do also – to promote our podcasters so they can get an audience. It also depends on the podcast. Some podcasts are just hook on and catch on and create an audience. While some podcast kind of fizzle and die out.
There is a great podcast in Australia, they’re called Podd Socks. It’s these 3 boys from Albury. They have this great podcast and they could do something with it but they record once a month, you know. I’ll be curious to see what their numbers are and I know, from a radio experience, that these boys could be really big. They just don’t know that. So, it really depends how much effort you put into your podcast and how much you try and promote your podcast and that’s what I’m trying to help also.
Ryan: Yeah. So, I think, for people who – one of the things that I like – like I do some like CPA or like affiliate deals inside my podcast. Like with PodcastFast, I’ve got a step-by-step guide of how to setup a podcast and part of that is setting up a website. And then I mention Arvixe, which is a web host that I use and recommend, and if anyone goes through – like I give out a link, like podcastfast.com/arvix or like I say, “Go to arvixe.com and if you use the coupon code ‘podcastfast’, you get 20% off.”
If someone uses that coupon code, then I get, I think it’s like $70 for anyone who signs up for that website hosting. I guess, I’m doing like an affiliate deal which is kind of cost per action.
The problem that I see in this space at the moment is that there’s people out there that have podcast, which may be getting okay downloads or they may be wanting to take it to the next level but they’re just – I guess they don’t have any solutions when it comes to getting advertising on them, like getting advertising on their podcast. They’re good are creating podcast but they just don’t know what to do in order to monetise it. What would you say to those people?
Jarrod: I think you have to do your research, you really do. Because we’re so young in the game, you advertising [inaudible 16:56] eh?
Ryan: I got 3 kids, man. They’re all sick with fevers. No sleep for me. I need my energy drinks.
Jarrod: I thought that was an affiliate program [inaudible 17:10]
Ryan: No. Actually, when you talk, the people can’t see me. So, they can only see me when I talk.
Ryan: So, that’ll be like, “What’s he talking about?”
Jarrod: Sorry, everyone. I’ve been off the grid for a few years. I’m catching up with technology. Now, I’ve forgotten what we’re talking about again.
Ryan: We’re just talking about the people that have a podcast, they want to advertise but they don’t know what to do. What’s their next steps?
Jarrod: Yeah. Well, I think, for me, come to my website. We’ve just launched the deathofradio.com. And what were doing, we’re taking podcasters, also who are writing articles and so we put a link to their podcast and then we just posh that out on social media. So, definitely podcasters have to do a bit of work to get themselves out there, like anything on the web, you know.
Ryan: No, no. I’m talking about – these podcasters already have a show, they’ve got a bit of an audience. They want to start making some money. What should those people do?
Jarrod: Alright. Find a sponsor, is what I say. Many companies are working on CPA actions, so they take a lot of people. Some companies are picky about which podcast they choose. That’s a good start, you know. You have other ways you make money also through your affiliate programs. I think it’s just research and getting yourself out there, for sure.
Ryan: Yeah. I think some things that people can do if they’re early in the game is – basically, if you listen to other podcasts and you see advertisers on there, then you can always look into those advertisers. Like, you know, MailChimp’s advertising or there’s like MeUndies or there’s some other razor company, I can’t remember their name, like Harry’s razors.
If you hear these other companies advertising, then you can go and try and get in contact with those companies. Because you know they already advertise on podcast. They know about it so it’s kind of an easier sale.
The other thing you can do is go to companies like podmatcher.com or you can look for other sort of agencies that may be able to help you. Or, like what works for me in the past with podcast advertising was basically going to businesses in my space and simply sending a cold email to them and saying, “Look, I’ve got this podcast. Getting these sorts of numbers looking for an advertiser, let me know if you’re interested.” and I did that for OnProperty.
It would have been like – it was almost 18 months ago now. It was in its early days and I was getting maybe like 10,000 downloads a month or something like that. And so, I just sent a bunch of emails to a bunch of different property companies and said, “Look, here’s what I’m doing. Looking for advertisers.” And one person got back to me, ended up signing up like a month-long sponsorship deal. I think that was worth like $400 or $500.
You can do cold emails and then I actually did a sales call to this person because they didn’t understand what podcasting was, how it works, what the figures are and that sort of stuff.
Jarrod: That’s what we’re doing at PodMatcher, too. Like, if you can’t be bothered to go and find someone, just drop us an email and say, “Hey, Jarrod, I need want a sponsor that does this for my podcast.” That’s kind of what we’re doing also. We’re a startup so we’ve been going for 8 months now and podcasting’s such an interesting, constantly changing industry that we’re trying to do that also. For anyone who actually wants to find a sponsor, just drop us an email and we’ll do the work for you. That’s our plan.
Ryan: Okay. So, you’re like a matchmaking service.
Jarrod: Oh! Fully! Yeah, if you want a date.
Ryan: Rather than for people to find true love, it’s for podcasters to find advertisers.
Jarrod: Exactly. We’ve had a great match with a podcast from the UK called The Literary Salon. It’s quite a fairly big podcast, has well known authors. We hooked them up with a book shop in Sydney, Abbey’s Bookshop, because they were here for the writers’ festival.
It went really well, they paid on CPM and they were happy for the exposure. They didn’t get the return that they were hoping for but they got the exposure. They were obviously happy.
But you got to be really careful, too. I’m going to diss this a little bit but the WTF’s Marc. The podcast WTF. Anyway, it’s a comedian, Marc Maron or something, I think his name is. His podcast is great, it gets massive downloads and it’s a constant infomercial. For me, maybe it’s because I come from radio, I don’t like the commercial – the constant commercial in-your-face.
Ryan: What do you mean it’s an informercial? I’ve never listened to this podcast. Does it have good content and then he adds in commercials?
Jarrod: Yeah. He has good content and it’s – I’ve listened to it a few times but there’s way too many commercials there. It’s quite subtle, which is good with podcasting – be really subtle with your product placement. For me, personally, I don’t think you want to have 5 or 6 sponsors at the start of your podcast or in the middle. I think you just stick with one to start with and then what I see is a wave. You have one sponsor then they come out then another sponsor comes in.
So, what we got at PodMatcher, we’re working with a radio station in Melbourne, actually, Podcast Your FM. What we’ve set them up with Audible and so that wave’s going to last for about 3 or 4 months and then we’re going to bring in another sponsor for them. And then we can kind of overlap each sponsor because the listeners will hear this commercial so many times, they’ll just get sick of it.
They want something new but something really humble, too. And that’s what I liked with Cereal and all the NPR programs, they’re just short, quick commercials at the start. It doesn’t destroy the product, it doesn’t destroy the podcast and then they just push it aside and then go into the podcast. If you want to support this podcast, go to audible.com or MailChimp or something.
Yeah. I think be really careful with your podcast and who you choose with your sponsor, is the point of that.
Ryan: Yeah. I think one thing that I was thinking about as you were saying that with Cost Per Action versus Cost Per Thousand downloads is that with the cost per action, if you setup like an affiliate sort of deal where everyone who signs up, you get an X amount of dollars.
You could launch that podcast and it could be crickets and nothing happens. But then, as your podcast grows over the months or over the years, people often go back and listen to your first episode.
When I subscribe to a podcast, I’ll literally go and I’ll download all of them. It might be like 60 episodes or something and then I tend to listen to the whole thing. We’re all like binge-watchers now. Like with Netflix and with the internet. Rather than every week – I remember I used to every single week, we would sit down and watch friends on TV and it’d be like a 20-minute episode every week.
Whereas now, you know, Daredevil drops on Netflix. 13 episodes drops on the same day and everyone just binge-watch it. I think I watched it all in like 5 days or something, the whole season.
People are starting to do this and one of the benefits of cost per action is that as people listen to your older episodes, they can still take that action. You can still make money from that over the years, as your podcast grows.
Jarrod: Yeah, you could.
Ryan: With the deals that you’re doing, is that the same sort of thing as the affiliates that I have?
Jarrod: Same sort of thing. Yeah, same sort of thing. It’ll just keep going and going and the great thing the advertisement will always be there and I’ve done that before with podcast. I discovered a podcast, recent one I discovered was one from New York. TLDR, I think it’s called. Short, little ones and I just downloaded all of them.
So the advertiser, I heard they’re with WNYC in New York. So, your advertisement will always be there. That’s a good thing about CPA, you get paid always. As long as it’s digital, it’s going to be there. As long as the company’s still alive, you’ll still get paid.
Ryan: Yeah, well, the company closes down. That’s the thing, companies could always close down their affiliate offers or their CPA or whatever it is. But that doesn’t mean you can’t ever go back and edit your podcast files and change the advertisers in the old episodes and stuff like that, if you can be bothered.
One of the things that I like about the way that I make money though podcasting, which is creating my own products and selling them, is that I just give people links within my podcast episodes to my own site. It might be for an eBook, it might be for a course or a membership site or something like that.
I know that’s going to be around in the future. If I decide to discontinue a product, like say, I’ve got a certain link, like onproperty.com.au/product, I can redirect that link to go to some sort of new course or something like that. So even if people listen to an an episode that’s 3 years old and they go to a page that doesn’t exist anymore, I can at least redirect them to something that they may be interested in instead.
Jarrod: How many podcasts are you doing a week?
Ryan: My main podcast is the OnProperty podcast, which is one about investing in property in Australia. At the moment, I’m doing like 2 to 3 episodes a week for that. I did daily episodes for about a year.
Ryan: I tried to get daily. I think I’ve got about 300 episodes in a year. And then I’ve got one on public speaking, which is updated fairly irregularly. And then this one as well. Oh, and then I’ve got Instructions not Included, which is like 5 – whenever I work. So, basically, like 5 days a week. That’s like a little short one that I do. So, I run a whole bunch. But it’s just such a good way to connect with people. People build trust with you and, I guess, as you podcast more and more, it becomes easier and easier and more fun.
Jarrod: That’s with the trust thing you mentioned also. The audience does have this trust in you and I think that’s where the advertisers just also sneaks in and goes, “Oh, can we just sponsor you because you have an audience who already trusts you.” and so the podcaster will pick the right sponsor that will connect with the audience also. So I think trust is a big thing there, too.
Ryan: Yeah. I think people need to be careful with their advertising. There’s a podcast that I listen to called This Week in Startups and they talk about startups and stuff like that, very big podcast. They only advertise people that they actually use.
Alright, we got cut off there. But as I was saying, there’s one podcast I listen to called This Week in Startups and they only advertise products that they personally use themselves. So, they kind of curated their list of advertisers because it is kind of seen as an endorsement.
What do you think about people putting advertising on their podcast that they haven’t necessarily used or haven’t endorsed themselves? Because, technically, it’s not an endorsement but because you’re reading it, it kind of feels like it is.
Jarrod: I think there’s a couple of ways around that. You can say to your audience, “Hey, if you want to support my podcast, and you like what I’m doing, you can support me by going to this website.” I think you can get around that a little bit. Usually and they should, the guys who are sponsoring you, should give you a part of their product or – with Audible, my podcasters get free credits for Audible. They can have a list and they can go talk.
Yeah. You should definitely try. If you don’t like the product and you’re selling it, you’re becoming radio. And you don’t want to do that because podcast and radio are really, really separate mediums. I know people think that podcasts are radio on the internet, but it’s not. It’s a really different vibe and it’s a really different way of talking to people.
So, yeah, be careful. Don’t become radio.
Ryan: Yeah. I agree. Podcast, you build so much trust and if you want to have a long term show, you need to keep that trust. I truly believe in being transparent with your advertising and saying that, “Yes, I’m being paid to advertise this but here’s what I think about it.” There’s a site called famebit.com, which does advertising for Youtube. Similar thing to what PodMatcher’s trying to do, they match up Youtube channels with people who want to advertise and sponsor on it.
They’re really good – people often get product for something they’re advertising so they can talk about it. And Famebit’s saying, “Look, if you don’t like the product, don’t run an advertisement where you’re just dissing the product.” Because, obviously, that’s just going to mess with things. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. Just send their advertising money back and don’t advertise it. So, rather than put an advertiser out there that you dislike and pretend you like it or rather than put one out there and diss it, just send it back and just pick an advertiser that you do resonate with.
If iTunes does introduce advertising and stuff like that, I guess chances for people to make a lot of money through podcasting through that avenue is going to be pretty difficult. With Youtube, CPM for Youtube videos is somewhere around the $2 to $4 mark – and that’s like cost per thousand. So if you get 10,000 people viewing, you might make $20 to $40.
Obviously, you’re going to need massive volume to get that. Podcasting, I’m guessing, if iTunes go into it, it’s probably going to be maybe similar to that. I think there’s always going to be a place for your Famebits, for you PodMatchers and things like that.
Ryan: For people to get better advertising revenue by either doing cost per action or by doing specific sponsorships and stuff like that.
Let’s say someone’s a business and they’re wanting to advertise on a podcast, what do you think makes a good business to advertise on a podcast?
Jarrod: I respect what you said before – to really give your podcast, your product and really show them how it works and see if they like it. What we do, we go to businesses also and say, “Hey, we got a podcast, I’m hunting.” So, I’ve been going to businesses recently, going, “Hey, I got this podcast. They have 8,000 downloads. Would you be interested in selling your hunting and camping gear on there?”
At the moment, we’re going to businesses, they’re not coming to us. But I think that will change when they realise how [inaudible 31:38] podcasting is. I was reading the steps from Edison Research had online that the target demographic that podcast hit is 67%, where with radio, it’s only about 37%. So it’s almost double than radio.
Ryan: I don’t know what that means.
Jarrod: It means the demographic that you want to hear. So you’ve got a podcast on camping. So your listeners are going to be listening because they like camping. So you would advertise on a podcast about camping. You wouldn’t advertise on radio because you would hit a larger audience on podcast than you would on radio.
Ryan: Yeah. We hit more people that are interested in your product, is what you mean.
Ryan: Yeah. I think you’re right. Like, at the moment, people really need to go to business if they want to get sponsorships for their podcast and businesses are likely – if it’s a match, then they’re going to be approached and hopefully they’ll see the value in it.
How do you pitch to a business? What do you say to them to get them to sign on?
Jarrod: It’s been a big learning curve. I have to show them the difference between podcast and radio. And the best thing is to show them that, “Hey, we’ve got a massive demographic here that actually love camping per se, so we can sell straight to them.” It is difficult pitching to businesses. The businesses that are easy to pitch to are the guys that are already in podcasting – that already understand podcasting.
So with Abbey’s bookstore in Sydney, Craig, the marketing guy there loves podcast and he said, “Yes. We want to be on a podcast.” He was excited. Again, we’re waiting for the evolution, for people to know about the power of podcasting and the strength of – it’s much stronger than radio.
I did some research last year. One of the radio stations, I went and called their clients that used to be on radio to see why they left radio. And they all said, “Ugh, social media. We make more money doing stuff on Facebook than we would advertising through radio.” That was really interesting. People are already shifting out of radio already, small businesses, large businesses and moving towards something social media. We’re just giving them something else on the plate, “Here, try podcasting.”
Ryan: I guess the big thing about Facebook or even Google Adwords is that you can target people who are in your demographic, who are interested in the things that your business does. So as long as you could get that podcast business match up. Like for me, when I did sales. You know, you just need to find one person who’s willing to step out and give it a try.
What do you find are the biggest objections that business give you when they say, “No, we don’t want to be on podcast.”
Jarrod: Because they have no interest. I had to ring a lot of bookstores in the UK to try and hook up with The Literary Salon. They said, “No, we don’t listen to podcast. We don’t care, we don’t advertise. We don’t do this, we don’t do that.” People are just not understanding podcast.
It’s not hard, you’ve just got to – my approach now is, “Oh, what podcast do you listen to?” or “What do you listen to? What’s your interest?” He knows a podcast on this, “Hey, you might be able to join this podcast.” That’s the approach that I’ve started to take and it’s working much better.
Ryan: I think it’s interesting, as you said, with bookstores and stuff like that, they tend to rely on foot traffic in order to drive all of their revenue and recurring growth. So they’re not actually – they don’t actually have an advertising budget. So if someone was to go out and to try and get advertisers, try and approach companies that are spending money on advertising and they’re not just relying on foot traffic.
Like, they might be doing print ads or Facebook ads or Google Ads. Like, they’re already spending money on advertising to drive their business and that’s part of their business and this is like a new lead-generation for them or new sales avenue for them to market their brand.
If you’re going to a business, probably just – most cases, just skip over the ones that aren’t already spending money on advertising. Like, don’t go to news agencies, don’t go to bookstores. Unless they’ve got an online presence and their actually actively marketing that, you’re probably wasting your time.
Jarrod: I noticed back where my family lived. It’s a small little city of 30,000. Now, a lot of those shops down the main street have closed down now, and all because of online retail. They’re all online stores selling sports gears and stuff, but everything gets online now. The business has to be online. If you’re selling sponsorship on podcasting, find a business that is online and does have that presence because they may understand a lot more.
I just see around this old town that the business in the last 10-15 years haven’t understood that, hey, you’ve got to be online now and you’ve got to be up with it or you’re going to die. There’s a lot of empty stores here, physically. It’s an empty town, almost, because of this. But around this, there’s these other little businesses where people see the market here. And say, “Hey, we need to make a different approach to get this town come back to life.” I think I could do well having, I don’t know, something like there is a place that does really well. And it’s actually a little cafe restaurant that does have a strong online presence. And they do really good coffee and stuff. And they’re just dominating in amongst this empty town.
You’d find the businesses online have that online presence and that’s exactly what we do, that’s the first thing that we look for.
Ryan: Ideally, a global presence as well. If not a global presence, be able to serve a global audience. Because you find that when you create a podcast, a lot of these downloads are going to come internationally, not necessarily from the country that you’re in. So, if you find someone that can service other countries around the world, then they’re obviously going to get more value out of your podcast than local people.
OnProperty is kind of unique in the fact that 80% of people that listen to it are Australian because it’s about property investing in Australia. But most podcast, like my public speaking podcast, that’s mainly US. Same with PodcastFast, it’s just really spread out. So, if I was to search for advertising for those podcasts, definitely would want something that could reach a global audience.
Jarrod: Yeah. That’s the best way to go about it. Again, with CPA, when technology comes about for business to implement CPA, you say, “Hey, it cost you nothing to advertise. You just pay me for how many people I send to your website or how many people sign up.” That’s going to be a lot more friendly towards the advertiser – the smaller business, the smaller advertisers who want to get on podcast, then you can offer them CPA. But that technology for those businesses to have CPA in place isn’t there yet. But I have something in place to get that happening.
Ryan: But something that people can use, which I’ve used as a hack for when that technology doesn’t exist is basically setup a page on your website that’s like a landing page with the goal of advertising whatever service it is or whatever and grabbing people’s details. Like I have a page on my website which talks about a mortgage broker that I recommend and I have an affiliate agreement with him.
So I get a percentage of the fees if I send people to him. But in order to track who’s going to him from me, basically, I send people to onproperty.com.au/mortgage. It’s got his details on there and there’s a contact form where he’ll give you a call if you enter your details. So if you enter those details, then he gets an email with their contact details and I get an email as well, so we both know. He knows that, okay, this has come from OnProperty and then I know that, okay, this lead has gone to him. That’s kind of like a hack that you can use in order to track that.
Jarrod: That’s a great way. Yeah, I like that. That’s a great way to monetise your podcast.
Ryan: Yeah. For podcasters, if they want to approach businesses and offer like a CPA, they could definitely potentially create like hack for that, which could be [inaudible 38:54].
Jarrod: I like that. That’s a great idea. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, podcasting. I think it’s the future. I think radio’s kind of taking a back seat – will take a back seat. Maybe they’re both in the front seat at the moment but I think radio’s going to take a back seat, eventually, to podcasting. Like Netflix has done to DVD’s and etc. I want to say downloads but I won’t say that.
Ryan: Netflix has done that to downloads a bit. The same that iTunes kind of curved illegal downloading of music because it just made it so easy. Netflix is doing the same for TV shows and for movies and stuff like that. But Netflix is taking a lot away from TV. The only TV that we watch is ABC for the kids, that’s it. And even now, we’re on Netflix and they’ve got shows that they love on Netflix that are for kids that they watch. In terms of our TV usage, it’s massively down. I think the same is true with podcasting.
My kids will grow up knowing very little about radio because me and their mum just never listen to radio. It’s either Pandora or it’s podcast. So, new generation is coming through and I guess radio will always be there for the older generation but I find it very hard to believe that radio is going to continue to be strong. Unless they take the content they’re putting on the radio and continually convert it into podcast as well.
Jarrod: Yeah. That’s what a lot of them are doing. I can see in the Melbourne radio stations, they put everything online, all their shows. But still there’s a big difference between podcast. That’s radio online, I don’t call them podcasts. Andy and Hamich, I probably would call them a podcast but other radio shows, they’re putting radio on the internet. I feel ashamed to classify them as podcasts.
Ryan: That’s the same as if you try and take a newspaper and if you just put it online the same way that it’s laid out. I think I remember hearing the first TV advertisement was, literally, they filmed a guy talking, reading like a radio ad.
They just wasn’t native to the platform and then, obviously over time, things changed, become more native and become a better experience. I think we’re seeing that. I think radio is in a dangerous position because they’ve got, obviously, their monetisation around radio and then they’re trying to appeal to podcast as well. Where, really, maybe they should be flipping that and making podcast that also go on the radio.
Jarrod: It’s a good point. I just picked up another podcast in the last week, it’s called The Adelaide Show. It’s with Steve Davis, who’s quite a well-known radio guy in Adelaide. And he said to me, “These radio stations they don’t realise that podcasting are their competition. They think they work together.” He had the same thought that I did, that I think it’s a competition. You know, is it going to be podcast or radio? Radio and podcast don’t work together. And he saw that but radio stations don’t see that at the moment.
Ryan: With podcasting and with radio, a lot of the time, you’re using them in the same sort of environment. Like you’re listening to podcast in your car, you’re listening to podcast at the gym, you’re listening to podcast when you’re going for a walk or brushing your teeth or whatever. Whereas, we used to turn the radio on at home and listen to music or we used to turn the radio on in the car. They are competing in the same space to the same users doing the same thing.
It’s not like, I guess, like Youtube and radio are slightly different because you can’t really watch Youtube while you’re driving. So radio still kind of has that on Youtube.
Yeah, I think, as you said, they are direct competitors. And I do think that radio – like if a radio station thought podcasting first, and then just took those recordings and put them on the radio, that would probably be a better strategy than what they’re doing at the moment.
Jarrod: That’s exactly what Joy FM Melbourne, I’ve started working with them, they’re a large gay and lesbian radio station but they have a large podcast also. They’ve just started realising that, “Hey, podcast, this need to take a front seat.” And the young kid who’s there who’s taking advantage of this, he actually understands that podcasting needs to come forward, instead of your radio. Your radio’s almost going to be secondary.
It might not be now, but it will be. So, I was really happy that those guys are like, “Yeah.” because not many radio stations are taking that initiative to go, “Oh, podcast should be first or maybe we’ll make them first.”
There are people out there who are aware of this. The younger generation, I would say.
Ryan: I think that’s the interesting thing. The way we see a lot of technology progress. Even with TV shows. TV shows were created for TV first and then they might be put online and you can go to channelseven.com or whatever it is and they just try and take what works on TV and squash it on to the internet. And then you’ve got Youtube, which is just people like you and me creating videos. TV think, “Okay, we need to take this TV model and put it on the internet.” Whereas people rise up only knowing Youtube, only doing Youtube and create videos for that. And then, you know, the attention moves towards Youtube and things like that.
The same will hold true, I think, for podcasting – is that people that choose to put it first, and choose to become good at that medium are the ones who will succeed in podcasting. Because if you’re listening to a podcast and you know that it’s a radio recording that’s just been put online, you’ll know.
Jarrod: You know.
Ryan: And you’re like, “Yeah, this isn’t as good as what I want.”
Jarrod: Do you know The Young Turks? The news outlet, The Young Turks? They’re massive with Youtube. They’ve had 2.2 billion downloads or watchers, we should say and downloads of podcast, everything together. The guy who started The Young Turks, which is an alternative online news outlet, you could say, this guy worked for NMBC and he had to leave because they were trying pay him to tell stories they want to tell.
He went and did it himself and then he got an audience. And now, they’ve had over 2 billion downloads. And so Youtube have risen up and gone, “Hey, yeah, we’re going to support you.” so, you’ve got the Youtube studios now where they’re just creating content and helping these amazing independent outlets kind of rise up above the mainstream media. I really like that about it, too.
Ryan: Once you get an audience, that’s when the advertisers come. When you’ve got a market and you’ve got a demographic and the advertisers want to reach that, they know they have to come through you. I get contacted every week with people wanting to sell properties through my website and stuff like that. Because, now, I’ve got one of the major property blogs on the internet. Probably up in the top 5, or definitely top 10 property blogs.
People are approaching me and they know, “Hey, if I want to reach this demographic, the audience is here. I’ve got to approach this person and get advertising.” 99 times out of 100, I’ll say “No.” because I sell my own products. It’s interesting, if you can get the audience, then advertising towards the future becomes a lot easier because you’ve kind of got a monopoly on that market.
Jarrod: Oh, completely. Yeah. I agree. I guess, the thing is with podcasters, just keep sticking at it and get a presence online and then build your audience. And then, the advertisers will flow to you also. Specific advertisers that you want will come to you or you’ll go to them, they’ll say, “Yeah.” Instead of struggling to find sponsorship, you know. But that’s what we do at PodMatcher, also. We find you a sponsorship, whether you’re small or large, we can sort that out for you, for sure.
Ryan: Yeah, awesome. So, for the people who don’t want to do the sales themselves or the cold calling or the emails, then you can hook up with an agency like podmatcher.com.
Well, Jarrod, thank you so much for coming on.
Jarrod: Thanks, Ryan!
Ryan: Look, I really appreciate this, I guess, kind of just chill back chat about podcasting, advertising, making money in podcasting. It’s really great to find someone that’s as passionate about podcasting as me. And I hope that –
Jarrod: I think we should join up every 6 months and talk about this and just see where it’s developed the past 6 months. Because I think there’s massive change at the moment and I’m curious to see where it’s all going to go.
Ryan: Yeah, well, let’s do that. We’ll touch base in 6 months and see what’s changed in podcast advertising and monetisation of podcast and see where the industry is going and do kind of like a newsy update.
Jarrod: Awesome. That’s a great idea.
Jarrod: Excellent. Thanks Ryan!
Ryan: Alright, guys, until next time, don’t just podcast, PodcastFast.